Europe, Referendum & Brexit (formerly Europe..IN or OUT??)

(04-03-2016 08:41 )Doddle Wrote:  Of course, a vote AGAINST Europe is a vote for Thatcher. Indeed, this is probably her last chance to ruin this country yet again.

Anybody remember Britian BEFORE thatcher?

Even the lowest income families now are living like middle class families would have done 40 years ago.

Why is this country ruined at the moment? It's even weathered a world wide recession ok.

I'm still waiting for a good reasoned argument (not just trotting out the scaremongery), as to why Britian would suddenly be ruined and on it's knees without Europe; especially when she contributes way more than she gets out of it.


I guess all just have to wait; unless of course there isn't one.

(04-03-2016 12:42 )wackawoo Wrote:   Anybody remember Britian BEFORE thatcher?

Community spirit... respect...

Quote:Why is this country ruined at the moment? It's even weathered a world wide recession ok.

After 7 & a half years, we're still in an enormous debt hole, interest rates have been on the carpet with similarly low growth in real terms for as long, our manufacturing base has gone to pieces... if you plan we'll be alright because we can turn to the USA or China for money & help, you'll find how hard it is to renegotiate from a position of desperate weakness.

Especially when President trump starts a trade war with China

(04-03-2016 14:27 )Doddle Wrote:  Community spirit... respect...

What do you mean by these? These have nothing whatsoever to do with politics. Do you think people back then lived in perfect harmony?

Quote:After 7 & a half years, we're still in an enormous debt hole,

Still being the operative word there. Are we more in debt? less in debt? if so, can we aford to send money to europe? UK has several trillions GNP each year.

[quote) interest rates have been on the carpet with similarly low growth in real terms for as long,[/quote]

Interest in the thatcher years were very high, 13/14% Seems to have got this low under labour. But is this more to do with world wide finantial problems?

Quote:our manufacturing base has gone to pieces...

How much is this down to cheap foreign imports?

Quote:if you plan we'll be alright because we can turn to the USA or China for money & help, you'll find how hard it is to renegotiate from a position of desperate weakness.

I fail to see how one of the 5 richest countries in the world, and one with a strong economy in a ressecion, is desperate.

Could you go into more detail with all these. This is what I mean about wanting details.

(04-03-2016 19:46 )HannahsPet Wrote:  Especially when President trump starts a trade war with China

We trade a lot with china

(04-03-2016 22:43 )wackawoo Wrote:  

(04-03-2016 14:27 )Doddle Wrote:  Community spirit... respect...

What do you mean by these? These have nothing whatsoever to do with politics.

If you truly believe the social dimension has "nothing whatsoever to do with politics" then I truly pity you. The causal links between poverty and crime and fairly self-explanatory.

Quote:

Quote:After 7 & a half years, we're still in an enormous debt hole,

Still being the operative word there. Are we more in debt? less in debt? if so, can we afford to send money to Europe? UK has several trillions GNP each year.

Our economy tanked in 2008. We haven't cleared the trillions of debt we owe, in fact it continues to climb all the time. We won't suddenly solve this by leaving the EU. Just as immigration won't magically drop to zero if we leave the EU.

Quote:

Quote: interest rates have been on the carpet with similarly low growth in real terms for as long,

Interest in the thatcher years were very high, 13/14% Seems to have got this low under labour. But is this more to do with world wide financial problems?

You don't have to remind me about business-crushing high rates under Thatcher

Quote:

Quote:our manufacturing base has gone to pieces...

How much is this down to cheap foreign imports?

A lot less than it has to do with a moronic government whose policies amounted to "let the market decide", a Pilate-esque absence of responsibility to a domestic economy.

Quote:

Quote:if you plan we'll be alright because we can turn to the USA or China for money & help, you'll find how hard it is to renegotiate from a position of desperate weakness.

I fail to see how one of the 5 richest countries in the world, and one with a strong economy in a recession, is desperate.

It isn't a strong economy, though. If it were, we wouldn't still be massively in debt, for one thing.

Interesting that the majority of posters on this thread seem to be 'out', yet the poll is almost 2:1 in favour of 'in'.

Quote:If you truly believe the social dimension has "nothing whatsoever to do with politics" then I truly pity you. The causal links between poverty and crime and fairly self-explanatory.

No I don't and you have shot yourself in the foot here a bit. As they say, people never had it so good, as I said earlier, the poorest now are living like middle class people 40 years ago. Most houses are multi car homes, most poeple have colour tvs, mobiles phones, computers and so on and so on, this simply wouldn't have been heard off back then.

In short people way back a when were way more poor on average than now. And to think it's being poor that leads to crime is pretty insulting. I'm pretty sure what causes crime is pretty complex, but being poor is not political, families can be poor whoever is in government, MOST do not commit crimes. I worked at a childrens theme park that employed people from diverse backgrounds, a lot came from 'the estate', others from pvt houses. There was a lot of stealling that run into thousands (literally) every single one that was caught were all from the private houses.

Quote:Our economy tanked in 2008. We haven't cleared the trillions of debt we owe, in fact it continues to climb all the time. We won't suddenly solve this by leaving the EU. Just as immigration won't magically drop to zero if we leave the EU.

In 2008? Maggie Thatcher was out of office in 1990!

Labour in government untill 2007, and it crashed in 2008, now it's picking up. So 1979 - 1990 Britian had a strong economy, it has today (recession allowing) it didn't in 70's and crashed just after labour left. See any patterns?

Bit of an interesting bit on it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_h...ive_easing

Quote:You don't have to remind me about business-crushing high rates under Thatcher

Does this imply you are a buisness man or had a buisness? Certainly for people with savings, it was fantatstic; I wasn't one of them

Quote:A lot less than it has to do with a moronic government whose policies amounted to "let the market decide", a Pilate-esque absence of responsibility to a domestic economy.

Explain more about this.

Quote:It isn't a strong economy, though. If it were, we wouldn't still be massively in debt, for one thing.

As far as I know ALL countries have a national debt, even America.


Current state (as off 2013):

Quote:From 2Q 2013, the UK's economy continued to grow for five consecutive quarters, the longest since Q1 of 2008,[121] showing growth beating most developed economies helped by the rebound in the housing market and strong growth in both manufacturing and services industries. The IMF increased UK growth forecasts for 2014 from 1.9% to 2.4% in January 2014.[122] Subsequently, inflation dropped to a low of 1.6% in Q1 2014.,[123] unemployment dropped to 6.8% (the lowest level since 2009) [124] with impressive growth in employment leading to an all-time high of 30.4 million.[125] The UK government posted a £107.6 billion national deficit for the fiscal year ending March 2014, meeting the target of £107.7 billion set a month previously.[126] This was especially impressive since many countries in the EU, more specifically in the Euro, were stagnating such as France and Italy.[127] However, it has been argued that the economic recovery is not reaching the majority of the people in the country, with wage growth not keeping up with inflation, however in 2014 it improved with wage growth outpacing inflation for the first time after six years

You know what, maybe we are asking the wrong question. May be the question should be 'is it costing the country TOO much to be in Europe?' rather than 'are we getitng anything back by being in?' I stated earlier that the amount Britian spends in Europe was the same as it spends on the NHS, which is shocking, however, it also stated that it was less than 1% of it's GNP, is that a massive sacrifice JUST IN CASE? I have an ipad air, through ebay a wheeling and dealing I got it for £7, been thinking of selling it and getting rid of it, but, i have not as yet becasue ONE DAY IT JUST MIGHT BE OF BENEFIT.

Maybe thats the attitude to have 'ONE DAY IT JUST MIGHT BE OF BENEFIT' rather than all these unconvincing arguments flying around.

(05-03-2016 01:44 )The Silent Majority Wrote:  Interesting that the majority of posters on this thread seem to be 'out', yet the poll is almost 2:1 in favour of 'in'.

May be the 'outs' want to know more about the detail, after all, we are already in.

Or maybe they just shout the loudest.

Some of us have seen all this before