Europe, Referendum & Brexit (formerly Europe..IN or OUT??)

^ Aren't France and Germany moving to the right. So much so that Merkel and Hollander won't be there for much longer.

(11-06-2016 10:06 )babelover48 Wrote:  you have proof?

You mean apart from on here and all the debates and a lot saying they find it difficult to make their minds up due to scaremongering rhetoric (both sides) and too little ACTUAL facts.

From what i see, you have three catogories, two that probably had their minds made up from the get go; those that want in and are convinced they are right and everybody else is just plain stupid for not thinking their way and Britian would go into melt down without the EU, those that think being out will be the land of milk and honey and johnny foreigner can go do one; then there are those, I suspect the majority, that are finding it very difficult to get a balanced opnion with real facts.

I suspect the difficulty is down to nobody REALLY knows, however convinced the in's and outs might think, you cannot predict the future.

Tell you what, how about you personally make a post, from you to me (without everybody else jumping in) and list why you personally think being in is best for Britian; If then can't raise any objections or challange any of those points you have made, I will vote in.

Hollande wont be there for long but not the EU fault its his socialist principles that are fucking him up the 70% income tax on high earners was the reason why there are a lot of French people now living in london. the refugee crisis not to blame most of the terrorists were french nationals all of former french colonies who would have got into the country anyway.

Germany its more to do with people are sick of having to bail out the Southern European countries out like greece and portugal. the refugee thing is only a small minorty who are vocal like everywhere germany has always had high immigration especially from the Balkans and turkey from the 90's onwards.

I put this in a different post from above becasue it's a new thought that just occured to me.

IF the UK votes to leave the EU and they do, but it turns into the worse case scenario can Britian just apply to rejoin again?

The rest of the world seems so desperate that the UK does remain in Europe (which is very suprising considering how usless the UK is if the in's would be believed), it would seem a given they could.

If so, no harm giving out a try.

if that was the case we would be in and out every 5 years

(11-06-2016 12:15 )wackawoo Wrote:  IF the UK votes to leave the EU and they do, but it turns into the worse case scenario can Britian just apply to rejoin again?

Valid question & I guess we could but I suspect we'd be told it would have to be on standard terms i.e no rebate & none of the concessions (whatever anyone thinks of them) that Cameron negotiated. Probably Remain & vote again if we are not happy in 5 years would give a less risky outcome but God forbid we have to go through this again.

I see the German finance minister has said we can forget access to the free market if we leave. Of more interest though is that he says the EU must listen to the discontent being expressed & undertake more reform to cut down on EU beaurocracy and step back from more integration.

Still not heard any convincing or rational reason for leaving the EU. Economically its surely a no brainer for Britain to be a part of a massive trading lock with a huge home market with no tarrifs rather than a small isolated island.The leavers cry out that 'well we did ok before the EU ' well this isn't the 1970's its the 21st century with a global international economy and despite the fact that apparently they seem to have already negotiated some unbelievable trade deals. Of course they still trot out the discredited figure of 350million that last week théy were giving to the nhs, or this week using to cut energy bills and next week will probably be promising to buy everyone a unicorn or perhaps flying pigs. Everyone knows, including thémselves this is a nonsense figure that takes no account of our rebate or what we receive from the regional devépment fund or capital projects wholly or partly funded by eu money yet they deliberatly try to hoodwnk and decéive the gullible. The other argument used by the leavers is sovereignty and 'taking back control' stripping away the fabrications of the tabloid press I struggle to find a piece of EU legislation I actually disapprove of. Whether its cheaper air fares and roaming charges or greater consumer rights and ẃorkers rights protection (which this government has said it wants to remove) to cleaner beaches and environment, providing an effective continent wide climate change policy (whih UKIP would remove) the EU has been damn good for Britain. And there can be no further union or transfer of powers without the agreemnt of all EU members, a treaty change, and a natonal referendum. That just leaves them with their hystericäl ænd slightly dißtasteful tirade againsr ÉU migrätion, with the odius Farage waving hîs passport about calling for documnt control for ÉU citizens entering the UK. Err actually Nige ÚK is not in the Shengen Zone of documént free travel and EU citizens have to show documénts at UK borders and we could ẃith good reason refuse entry, indeed over 2000 EU citizens were refused entry for security reasons, perhaps if UKIP's MEPs bothered to turn up for anything other than to collect their expénses he might be better informed. Leavers try to have it both ways with migrants draining the benefits system ,they don't they contribute more tax than they take in benefits, or they take UK jobs, yet government figures trumpet falling unemployment and highest employment rates in years, so neither argument stands up. Any side that needs to descend to the levél of deceipt and untruth sues by the brexit mob clearly has no argument. People like them need to learn the difference between patriotism and nationalism.Surely a patriot wants hat is best for his country änd that must bea UK playing a leading role in shaping Europe, for too long we've been sat to one side sulking that they're all 'out to gt us'. The last place I want to live is a country dominated by xenopobes , behind a trump style wall because we want to relive this fantaasy world of the fifties.

(11-06-2016 12:54 )SecretAgent Wrote:  

(11-06-2016 12:15 )wackawoo Wrote:  IF the UK votes to leave the EU and they do, but it turns into the worse case scenario can Britian just apply to rejoin again?

Valid question & I guess we could but I suspect we'd be told it would have to be on standard terms i.e no rebate & none of the concessions (whatever anyone thinks of them) that Cameron negotiated. Probably Remain & vote again if we are not happy in 5 years would give a less risky outcome but God forbid we have to go through this again.

I see the German finance minister has said we can forget access to the free market if we leave. Of more interest though is that he says the EU must listen to the discontent being expressed & undertake more reform to cut down on EU beaurocracy and step back from more integration.

Also one big concession would be we would have to join the Euro something we would never do any way

Yeah Saw the german finance ministers comments and trust me you do not want a pissed off german cos they never forgive and forget

(11-06-2016 13:13 )brummie Wrote:  Still not heard any convincing or rational reason for leaving the EU. Economically its surely a no brainer for Britain to be a part of a massive trading lock with a huge home market with no tarrifs rather than a small isolated island.

Can't read rest due to no paragraphs; sure way to fuck over a dyslexic

But that is not a given, you can't say this because you don't know. You can't judge this on the austerity 1945 - 1970 due to it being post war, even then the worse came AFTER Britian joined in the 70's. Plenty of countries large and small will trade with the EU quite happily, I'm sure if they can happily trade with the EU with out the 'free trade' the UK can.

And yet again, nobody is saying why all these individual countries of the EU would suddenly stop trading with Britian. Are you seriously telling me that if a country in Germany or France are selling their products to the UK it would just suddenly stop? I don't believe that for a second.

To call Britian an isolated island is also disingenuine, it is one of the worlds richest and most powerful countries, despite it's size.

(11-06-2016 15:05 )wackawoo Wrote:  But that is not a given, you can't say this because you don't know.

And yet the leavers can say with absolute certainty that a golden utopia of countries desperate to trade with the UK are waiting in the wings? Nothing is more uncertain than that. What is certain is that tariffs apply against non EU countries and UK goods lose that competitive advantage compared to other outsiders.

(11-06-2016 15:05 )wackawoo Wrote:  To call Britian an isolated island is also disingenuine, it is one of the worlds richest and most powerful countries, despite it's size.

Britain inside Europe is one of the worlds richest nations, doesn't mean it will be outside.