Europe, Referendum & Brexit (formerly Europe..IN or OUT??)

(25-06-2016 10:24 )SecretAgent Wrote:  This vote has changed the face of politics. I'm surprised & disappointed that some people who voted have said they voted Leave as a protest vote and did not want or expect Brexit to happen.

It was wrong in this campaign that independent professionals had there assessments rubbished just because they provided assessments that Brexit did not like. We should be able to have unquestioned facts to help us. It would then be the responsibility of parties to explain how they would overcome what they deemed a negative assessment.

This is largely my feeling as well.
To my mind both campaigns had a responsibility to make a constructive case for remaining in or exiting the EU.
In my view both sides failed to do so.
The purpose should have been educate, not to rhetoricize and trade bogus statistics, claims and counter claims.
To me it felt like fears and prejudices were being played on by both sides in a pretty appalling manner.
It was a battle of scaremongering and speculation which merely resulted in the people having nothing meaningful to go on from either side in making their decision.
When this happens to my mind the likelihood grows of a protest vote and a mass desire to give the establishment a kicking.

I regret the whole way in which this sorry episode has been played out and have aching fears about the consequences in terms of economic stability and quality of social tolerance both within this country and beyond.

However the country has made it's decision and I too respect it.

(25-06-2016 11:40 )MacDanett Wrote:  Let's think about this. Scotland already has its own parliament, own government, own legal system, why can't it have its own membership of the EU?

Even if Scotland remains within the UK, why can't it also remain a member of the EU, even if England leaves the EU?

Scotland has autonomy, so why can't it make a decision to stay within the EU, regardless of what England wants to do?

A lot of scots live and work in England, there would have to be boarder controls and applications to work here.

Most of the UK wealth is generated in England, I'm sure scots are getting some of that.

(25-06-2016 11:24 )HannahsPet Wrote:  TTIP will never get thru both Clinton and Trump are against it anyway and most of EU are against it

I hope you are correct, but I'm not convinced; Clintion will do whatever benefits America, and allowing US corporations access to protected markets, with the option of suing if access is in any way thwarted, is what TTIP is all about.

As for Trump, given that he himself doesn't know what he thinks, or stands for, much of the time, and changes his views, sometimes mid-sentence, if he thinks it will go down well with his audience, who knows what he would do?
Hell, at one point yesterday, he thought he was in Florida, rather than Turnberry!

The EU have been in favour of TTIP, presumably seeing it as a way out of financial 'difficulties' (a situation that the US is taking advantage of) - thankfully, as more people in the EU become aware of it, opposition is growing.

However, as I've said, the Tories are all for it!

(25-06-2016 11:16 )Scots Napoleon Wrote:  A very statesmanlike speech by Nicola Sturgeon this morning, or perhaps that should be stateswomanlike.

I loved her speech this morning. Impressive and unflinching!

We have Sturgeon. The English have Farage and Johnson.

I was slightly surprised to see some of the ethnic minority babe channel hosts say that they voted to leave the EU, because under the Leave campaigns immigration proposals they wouldn't have been allowed to enter the country.

(25-06-2016 11:09 )babelover48 Wrote:  I would have thought that the Parliamentary Commission would have looked into the claims both sides made throughout the campaign and stepped in if any claims made were not true and forced them to retract them.

The whole question of electoral law is a bit of a minefield, especially when you consider that this was a referendum not an election, so some of the legislation may not apply.
Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure that it is not in the remit of the EC to monitor the accuracy of comments and pledges made during campaigning, if it were, then pretty much every election in recent history would have to be investigated as they are all awash with lies, exaggeration and bullshit!


Regarding this whole 'protest vote gone wrong' business, I can't help feeling that's a severe case of clutching at straws, trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.
However, I do have an alternative theory on why this is getting media attention. There is no doubt that UKIP pick up support in elections from protest voters simply voting against the main parties, so maybe this is a way of 'the establishment' trying to fight back a bit and take some of the potential momentum away from Farage for future elections - 'Look everyone, this is the sort of thing that can happen if you protest vote, so use your vote more wisely'.

That's my conspiracy theory, and I'm sticking with it

(25-06-2016 11:40 )MacDanett Wrote:  

(25-06-2016 11:16 )Scots Napoleon Wrote:  The Scottish government will enter into immediate discussions with EU institutions to explore all options to protect Scottish membership of EU

Let's think about this. Scotland already has its own parliament, own government, own legal system, why can't it have its own membership of the EU?

Even if Scotland remains within the UK, why can't it also remain a member of the EU, even if England leaves the EU?

Scotland has autonomy, so why can't it make a decision to stay within the EU, regardless of what England wants to do?

The Scottish Parliament is a devolved Parliament, and can only legislate for areas that are not 'reserved'; Westminster retains power in respect of these (many) reserved issues, such as defence, international relations etc.

(25-06-2016 11:34 )wackawoo Wrote:  I hope the rest of the EU see just how desperate Cameroon tried to stay in EU, how alot of the experts and so on adviced and pretty much how close the vote was and take the more lenient option, after all, Germany and France will both now get more from the EU coffers now that the UK is not taking it's percentage.

Good post Wackawoo. Just one thing though - We are one of the biggest net contributors to the EU so in fact there will be less money available for distribution by the EU. If they want to keep up the same level of expenditure within the remaining 27 then they will have to pay more between them. That will not go down well in Germany and France in particular where both governments face elections in the next 16 months and internally have difficulties with far right anti-immigration political parties.

(25-06-2016 11:40 )MacDanett Wrote:  

(25-06-2016 11:16 )Scots Napoleon Wrote:  The Scottish government will enter into immediate discussions with EU institutions to explore all options to protect Scottish membership of EU

Let's think about this. Scotland already has its own parliament, own government, own legal system, why can't it have its own membership of the EU?

Even if Scotland remains within the UK, why can't it also remain a member of the EU, even if England leaves the EU?

Scotland has autonomy, so why can't it make a decision to stay within the EU, regardless of what England wants to do?

Dont see why that could be a problem as Scotland already has its own legal framework scottish law

(25-06-2016 11:56 )ryuken Wrote:  I was slightly surprised to see some of the ethnic minority babe channel hosts say that they voted to leave the EU.

im not a lot people from the ethnic minoritys have voted to leave. which i find ironic