Europe, Referendum & Brexit (formerly Europe..IN or OUT??)

(15-11-2018 19:39 )GreenMachine Wrote:  Who on earth would take her place if she were challenged? Jacob Rees-Mogg, Boris Johnson(perish the thought) Philip Hammond? Michael Gove(who was stabbed in the back by Boris) or someone from out of the blue-Sarge? No! Rosemary the telephone operator? No! Penry the mild, mannered janitor and junior minister of transport? Could be!

or even worse Corbyn the clown if theres a general election can you imagine Diane Abbot doing the sums

Doesn't add up I always thought that Chuka Amunna was a possible leader but he pulled out so we were stuck with Corbyn- I am sure there are others who could challenge him BUT remember he survived twice and got two BIG mandates each time so we might be stuck with him for a while. At least he is good at turning the screw on May-BBC Deputy Political Editor Norman Smith said she was pummelled by ministers this morning at PMQ's-he's not wrong.

Every time I hear politicians insinuate betrayal of the vote to leave or assert that the deal proposed is not what the people voted for my heart sinks and anger grows.
Lets get one thing straight here.
Is there a single person in this country (politician or not) who can definitively give the main reason as to why the people who voted leave cast their decision.
Can anyone say with ABSOLUTE 100% certainty what the majority main reason for voting LEAVE either was or is?
I would venture to suggest the answer to these questions is a resounding No.
The ballot paper asked the question to leave or remain. It did not ask the reason or reasons why. It didn't ask 'Do you want a hard brexit' or 'Do you want a soft brexit' or 'Do you want a medium brexit?.
Nobody knew what the priority concern of LEAVE voters was or is which makes negotiating public Brexit priorities on the publics behalf virtually impossible.

Both the Conservative and Labour parties seem divided on the issue and what sort of Brexit they want. The Lib Dems never wanted it at all and neither it seems do the SNP.
Theresa May seems to have gone down the compromise Brexit road and in so doing has upset both wings of her own party. Sat on the fence only to find somebody keeps rattling it in the hope she falls off.
The question is what sort of Brexit has a realistic chance of getting through a Commons vote? My concern at the moment is that the answer to that is NONE.
If the proposed response is that it should go to a peoples vote then it gets very difficult. Those in favour will say it is necessary to ask the people again either because of parliamentary rejection of the proposed deal or because nobody really knows what the priority public reason was for voting LEAVE in the first place.
Those against will say a peoples vote is a betrayal of the initial vote to LEAVE and defeats the whole point of the first referendum.
Valid arguments on both sides.

My own view is that the initial referendum was a farce.
The referendum should have been an educational tool.
In the end it turned into a game of remorseless speculation, bogus statistic trading, scaremongering and deceit on BOTH sides.
To be frank when I went to the ballot box that fateful day I had no idea what to do.
I felt utterly incapable of making a qualified, well informed, constructive, sensible decision on which way to vote.
I will be absolutely honest.
I did not and still do not really know what the EU really does.
I don't know what it's processes are or indeed why the processes are the way they are. I don't know specifically what it has control over and what it doesn't.
I don't know how it spends it's money and why it spends it how it does.
I have no idea how efficient, effective, bureaucratic, trustworthy or not the EU is.
How could I know? I was not taught these things at school.
I have my suspicions of course but suspicion is mere suspicion and not fact.
I like to think I keep up to date with current affairs but I simply do not have time to go researching the EU. I would be there forever doing it.
The whole sorry saga depresses me and with a hung parliament chaos will continue to ensue. It will be sods law there ends up being a general election and we end up with another hung parliament and more mayhem.
I fear the two main political parties at Westminster will remain as divided as the public seem to be . I am totally lost

The EU was supposed to be about trade between nations and free movement of people but instead it has become an exercise in empire building. There is nothing democratic about the EU, it rides roughshod over its members ignoring their concerns and forcing its will upon the people. Its leaders are hellbent on creating a new eastern bloc in western Europe and will stop at nothing to achieve their goal.

Touching on Snookered's comments about the whole Brexit debacle & the truth is we are probably in political gridlock as the majority of the 650 MP's are EU Remainers ideologically.And so not only did the peasants revolt in voting Leave come as a surprise to those Remain MP's accepting the result is proving to be something different with them when they don't support or back leaving the EU.It's those MP's who don't support or respect the decision to leave the EU who want a People's Vote/2nd Referendum as a ruse for them not having to deal with Brexit in parliament at all & are merely asking for us plebs to vote again (the right way this time).Let's be honest there isn't one Leave voter calling for a People's Vote it's remainers who don't want to leave the EU so how would a 'magical' People's Vote realistically bring both leave & remain voters harmoniously together.It sure as fuck wont & so we'll probably continue to remain a divided country long after all of use are pushing up daisies.And I may disagree on some Snookered's solutions on the referendum outcome what he touches on & many people people maybe in the same boat where they were unsure on what to vote for on the 1st vote will almost certainly apply on the 2nd vote making a 2nd vote not the magical panacea some voters think it will be.In an ideal world where both Labour & Tories clearly stood on a General Election Manifesto in 2017 where they respected the referendum result which clearly meant leaving both the customs union & single market (it was clearly stated in the 2016 EU ref by Cameron,Osborne & the Tory government) that both Labour & Tories could have put their heads together & devise a Brexit Deal to reflect that instead of grandstanding,backbiting & point scoring.

Snookered asks what the main reason was for voting Leave as a means for the Government to negotiate a Brexit & for me there were many reasons ie being a country under UK laws not EU laws,un-elected EU bureaucrats,ending large EU subsidies/payments,controlling borders etc.But if pushed for me it would be controlling immigration/ending freedom of movement & for the Government to introduce an immigration policy that doesn't discriminate where a person is from but is controlled to allow people with skills to offer & job vacancies are available & where
there aren't over-stretched infrastructure problems (due to large influxes of people at once).I'm a huge fan of apprenticeships & working in the construction industry for over 20 years I can see with my own eyes many companies don't bother recruiting young apprentices & would rather recruit from the EU as it is cheaper & isn't worth the hassle.

(15-11-2018 20:37 )GreenMachine Wrote:  

(15-11-2018 20:26 )HannahsPet Wrote:  

or even worse Corbyn the clown if theres a general election can you imagine Diane Abbot doing the sums

Doesn't add up I always thought that Chuka Amunna was a possible leader but he pulled out so we were stuck with Corbyn- I am sure there are others who could challenge him BUT remember he survived twice and got two BIG mandates each time so we might be stuck with him for a while. At least he is good at turning the screw on May-BBC Deputy Political Editor Norman Smith said she was pummelled by ministers this morning at PMQ's-he's not wrong.
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Every time I look at Dianne Abbott being interviewed I kind of hope someone will pull her syrup(wig) off to see if she turns into the grand-witch from the Roald Dahl Witches film (the one that had Rowan Atkinson in it).But fuck me her incompetence as a politician pale insignificance to her piss poor economics or simple mathmatics for that fact.She's certainly winging it as a Home Secretary as whenever she is asked about Labour's immigration policy she doesn't seem to know anything & the fact Labour don't have an Immigration Minister speaks volumes.And regarding Chuka Umunna I have a simple rule of thumb where I don't trust any man that wears more make-up than a woman.He choked when he first went for the Labour Leader position because the fucker has more skeletons (in the closet) than in the local cemetary.

Back to the Tories problems & I hear from reliable sources that Michael Gove holds the fate of Theresa May in his hands should he resign then May is toast.Gove waited until the last moment to stab Boris Johnson in the back so I think Gove is looking for the opportune moment to put May out of her misery.He turned down the position of Brexit Secretary a few hours ago.

What would make her toast if the DUP now deserted her too big time I am now beginning to think that this deal was cooked up with some vert strong black coffee laced with marijuana and I bet she never read the small print either (bet she never reads the small print of anything she buys to make sure she can get her money back either)


As for Michael Gove I could never stomach him being PM he is a far bigger weasel than Corbyn. He'd probably be the one who would jump into bed first with the SNP!!

Her one big problem is that if (and it is very BIG 'IF') that even if she got it through Parliament she will get toasted by the Lords as they will reject it outright

Only 5 Brexit secretary’s until Christmas..

(16-11-2018 10:56 )babelover48 Wrote:  Her one big problem is that if (and it is very BIG 'IF') that even if she got it through Parliament she will get toasted by the Lords as they will reject it outright

Surely that isn't a problem at all.

When the Commons and the Lords are in disagreement, the Lords always back down in the end.