Europe, Referendum & Brexit (formerly Europe..IN or OUT??)

(17-01-2019 15:34 )HannahsPet Wrote:  Like she was ever going to give up no deal for nothing so she pisses off the ERG only for him to call another vote of no confidence he must think shes really stupid

The no Deal should be kept there to keep them honest any fucking about and we go over the cliff

Exactly,but the truth with MP's or most of them is that they are career politicians & have never had a job outside politics (or have any business acumen) throughout their career.From studying Politics in University then into an Internship working under an MP then into a civil-servant & then ushered into a safe-seat is pretty much the conveyor belt for churning out MP's not slogging their nuts off 10-12 hours a day on a building site or in a manual job on the minimum wage.I price up jobs for myself & have done for other companies & one of the first rules of negotiations are never tie your hands when negotiating a potential deal or contract ie the ability to walk away or reject it,otherwise known as leverage.If not it gives the knowledge to the opposing side no matter how bad the deal they concoct they'll be safe in the knowledge you won't walk away & they have no incentive to offer anything better.As much as The Government or Parliament want 'No Deal' off the table any body who enters a high-stakes game of Poker would be a fool to show their playing hand to the opposition (even if it isn't a very good hand) just a lot of bluffing & straight-facing needed.

As bad as the Tories are Labour are slowly but surely unravelling to a whole new level of incompetence as Corbyn dances on a pinhead whenever the mention of a 2nd Referendum pops up & looks like he has just been handed a hot coal.And when Corbyn sets up 'red-lines' of his own (take No Deal off the table) & rejects discussions with Theresa May until she 'drops her red-lines' is like an angry toddler throwing a temper-tantrum after they see another toddler playing in the sandpit.But should Corbyn get the General Election he craves what will be the Manifesto Pledge regarding the EU & Brexit would it be Leave or Remain.The thought of Diane Abbott as Home Secretary would see the Euthenasia Clinic in Switzerland the number one holiday destination on a one-way ticket.

And listening to Tony Blair being interviewed by Andrew Neil on Thursday evening I always thought was a lying,devious, slippery,untrustworthy cunt who should be tried in The Hague for war-crimes.But when Neil managed to coax out of Blair when subtly admitted that he had negotiated/encouraged the EU to take a hardline stance with the UK on negotiations as it would make staying in the EU more likely.Add traitorous cunt to the adjectives to describe Blair who is prepared to side with the EU instead of this country.

Another Car Crash by Diane Abbott on Question time it seems and all her followers always call racism or sexism or both nah shes just useless bet there are dozens of black and asian maybe black asian women mp's who could have done a lot better job last night than her

Corbyn doesn’t want to committ the Labour Party to anything because once he does the splits in the Party will become more visible. I despise his refusal to talk when he has always been willing to talk to terrorists without pre-conditions. The Liberals & SNP are both against a No Deal exit but have met Mrs May and some of Labours backbenchers have as well. He’s supposed to be capable of being PM himself but sadly is showing how unsuitable he is. The best Labour politicians are sat on the backbenches and must be despairing at the lack of leadership.

I struggle to look at any political party and see someone who has the leadership qualities required for the job.

Boris at JCB least they have the machinary to remove the tonne of bullshit he is currently spouting

(18-01-2019 07:30 )SecretAgent Wrote:  Corbyn doesn’t want to committ the Labour Party to anything because once he does the splits in the Party will become more visible. I despise his refusal to talk when he has always been willing to talk to terrorists without pre-conditions. The Liberals & SNP are both against a No Deal exit but have met Mrs May and some of Labours backbenchers have as well. He’s supposed to be capable of being PM himself but sadly is showing how unsuitable he is. The best Labour politicians are sat on the backbenches and must be despairing at the lack of leadership.

I struggle to look at any political party and see someone who has the leadership qualities required for the job.

Corbyn's clever game of not backing either side of the debate for the past couple of years was only going to last for so long.Either backing the democratic decision to leave or subverting that & calling for remain & a 2nd referendum is like Corbyn's imitating a trapeze artist walking the wire aware falling either side represents big problems where one side is leave & the other remain & choosing to fall on one side will alienate the other. But the wire is now coming to an end as the trapeze artist is just footsteps away from the end.The crux of the problem other than Corbyn being a lifelong Brexiteer trying to appease Labour MP's & members by wrapping himself up in a Remain facade is that Labour members & Labour voters are different beasts.As where the members are campaigning/protesting for a second vote it doesn't necessarily reflect the voters opinions (particularly in the Northern heartlands) & Union Paymasters like Len McCluskley are aware of that as is Corbyn.And Labour know they could never win a GE on just the membership vote alone which is a small fraction of the overall vote share required.The London & Metropolitan based MP's like Corbyn,Emily Thornberry,Chuka Umuna,Sadiq Khan (whilst not an MP but is more interested in stopping Brexit than concentrating on his failing job as Mayor) need to step outside the M25 zone & visit areas like Wolverhampton,Birmingham,Wigan, Sunderland,Doncaster,Hull,West Brom etc all high leave voting areas & speak to voters there instead of assuming how London voted reflected the rest of the country.

The olive branch that Theresa May is holding out to Corbyn on closer inspection probably more resembles a shitty stick should have been made a lot earlier but consensus & compromise needs to be made between parties particularly with the more sage Labour back-benchers who respect the vote & want to move on & who aren't those who refuse to compromise other than on backing a 2nd referendum that doesn't solve anything.

What the whole Brexit debacle on all sides of the political spectrum has only emphasized to me & probably countless others is what a bunch of self-serving, egotistical,freeloading,out-of-touch with reality shower of incompetent people (paid handsomely) to represent us & their constituencies.Sure not all of them are of the same ilk but most are it would seem.But when Parliament & the Public's confidence with MP's are at an all time low it's no wonder when on a Binary vote to leave or remain in the EU in a 'once in a generation referendum' don't accept the democratic decision they instead stamp their feet & demand the only compromise is to vote again in a 2nd ref (or until they get the result they want).And when I hear the bollocks about MP's deserving a pay-rise to match the high-paying earners in the city of London like bankers etc or as a way to attract the biggest & brightest brains into politics they already earn in excess of three times the minimum wage (expenses are also used to top up their salary) & tbh they ain't worth half that.

I am struggling to see the point of extending article 50 for two reasons.
Firstly on the assumption that the EU can be held to their word that they will not renegotiate the withdrawal agreement.
Secondly I have serious doubts as to whether MPs across the Commons chamber can or ever will reach a workable majority in favour of ANY exit strategy from the EU.
This is because there are so many 'red lines' in play in across both Conservative and Labour MPs that are incompatible. And to complicate matters further the EU also has red lines where they are seemingly not willing to compromise.

The biggest fundamental issue for me is that most of the Commons were and still are anti Brexit. This being the case makes agreeing on an exit strategy all the more complicated. The parliamentary will whether by accident or design seems to be to scupper, stifle and frustrate the very idea of Brexit actually happening.
The public will in the referendum was to leave the EU.
The public knew when they voted that Brexit negotiations could result in a successfully negotiated deal or a possible no deal.
In that knowledge they still voted to leave.
By the same token when the Commons voted to trigger Article 50 they also knew the aforementioned possibilities and voted to trigger the process.
For MPs to suddenly start and/or enable parliamentary processes to try to prevent a no deal scenario seems to me to be (a) disingenuous (b) far too late and © highly presumptuous of an idea that no deal is something those who voted for Brexit are ardently opposed to.
The will of the people in the referendum is proving subject to speculation and assumption on what the vote actually meant and the reasons for it.
Not only that but there are those who would argue the will of the people is being disrespected. The point is that the majority voted to leave NOT remain.

Not an easy thing for me to write because I voted to remain.

Some parliamentarians are in favour of a 'peoples vote' or 2nd referendum.
Once again however I have to question the value of such a proposal.
What happens if it finishes 52-48 in favour of remain?
Is the suggestion that such a result would override the result of the first referendum?
Those in favour of leave would have genuine cause for complaint if that were the decision. What happens if Remain won 51-49.
Does that mean Leave still win 101-99 on aggregate? .
Or should it be deemed as 1-1 and therefore a need for a 3rd and deciding referendum is required a year later. Best of 3, best of 5 etc etc etc.
Must win by 2 clear referendums .
Maybe if either Leave or Remain won the 2nd referendum by a big margin it might clear the waters somewhat.

The question of what options should appear on the ballot paper has been mooted in recent days by some commentators and parliamentarians alike.
The desire of many MPs seems to be to avoid no deal.
But who are they to presume that the public opposition to no deal is as strong?
MPs are there to serve the will of their constituents and the electorate at large.
They are not there to represent their own opinion or self interest.
Something that in so many ways seems lost on the modern culture of politics.
There is an assumption by MPs that 'Remain' would have to be on the ballot paper almost as if it takes a higher priority than no deal.
But this is fundamentally wrong.
The question of to leave or remain is no longer the question.
That question has received it's answer already much to my disappointment but the result is the result. It must be respected.
To that end the question on the ballot paper should be 'How' rather than 'If' we leave.

If Parliament is incapable or unwilling to come to heal then maybe the public should rule on Theresa Mays deal v No deal.
Whatever they decide goes on the basis the will of the majority in a democratic vote must win the day.

SO FUCKING FED UP WITH THIS BULLSHIT,LETS JUST WALK AWAY AND START AGAIN.

Hmmm has no one realised yet march 29th no deal we will have to let these fuckers sort the shit out !! they couldnt get there shit together to get a deal fucking through so they really go be much help when the shit hits the fan !!

^ Boris will say don’t worry it will be easy. Just like yesterday he denied saying anything about Turkey during the referendum campaign and now the media have fact checked the speeches, articles & letters he wrote clearly warning about 70 million + Turks getting free movement and hinting they would all be coming here.

A pox on all their houses!