Politics - The Non-Brexit Thread.

^This is why there is a total dis-connect & a distrust in politics in general with the wider public where Corbyn paints a false version of Utopia ie free University fees,re-nationalized industries,more money for councils,schools,NHS,benefits etc But he is never clear where the money for all that comes from when all he is doing is re-cycling the same finances again & again like any opposition would promise.He wants to disarm Trident but still wants build the infrastructure for it (to keep the jobs going) & wants to leave Nato & disband needs for an army.So it's no wonder voters who are unaware of Corbyn & McDonnell's track history often fall for it & then feel duped when those promises are rowed back.

And then we have the other shower in the Tories who role out the old mantra about 'helping the strivers' & 'making work pay' when in fact most benefits are paid out on in-work benefits which in simplified terms means the cost of living outstrips many incomes.Then there is the whole debacle about the benefits system what with Universal Credit making people financially worse off.A Fitness to Work Assessment carried out to certain people clearly who weren't able to work (my dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer & was later deemed fit to work).Cutting council budgets without an iota of the consequences to what services will be cut,sitting idly by whilst the high-street struggles with extortionate business rates etc whilst big multi national companies pay token gestures rather than pay the proper taxes like every other company has to.

In a broken two-party system choosing between either Labour or Torys is like choosing the least painful way to die when facing the death penalty (your are fucked either way). Being a floating 'politically homeless' voter I would rather gauge my eyes out with a shit covered stick than vote Lib-Dems,UKIP,Greens or this new protest party.So what to do.

(21-02-2019 14:07 )HannahsPet Wrote:  See he sticking up for that isis bride now

He'll be inviting her to Parliament for tea & chocolate digestives given the chance. He likes having Terrorists round for a natter.

(21-02-2019 21:05 )Tumble_Drier Wrote:  

(21-02-2019 14:07 )HannahsPet Wrote:  See he sticking up for that isis bride now

He'll be inviting her to Parliament for tea & chocolate digestives given the chance. He likes having Terrorists round for a natter.

wife no 5??

(20-02-2019 22:16 )Tumble_Drier Wrote:  

(20-02-2019 13:22 )HannahsPet Wrote:  Wow speculation that Ken Clarke could be next to join

I hope they've got a strong lock on the drinks cabinet.

the drunken souss anna soulessbury has already emptied it....

It’s always been the case that to win a General Election you have to win sufficient uncommitted “middle ground” voters to win the key swing constituencies. Today that is harder for either party as one lurches to the extreme right and the other to the hard left. Despite Corbyn’s public statements for a kinder politics his zealots in Momentum have been brutal in taking over constituency labour parties and driving deselection votes on MP’s they see as disloyal to him. Moderate local labour party Councillers have been forced out and the National Executive Committee is now dominated by hard left supporters. The Labour Party takeover is complete.

In the Conservative Party they’ve been slower to lurch right but now they are moving more quickly. The ERG is a party withing a party. It has it’s own leadership, funding and whip system whilst its leaders avoid putting themselves forward as Conservative party leaders so as to destroy the moderates from within. Entryism to local party membership is in full swing promoted by Aaron Banks on his Brexit website. Theresa May cannot pass any legislation, Brexit related or otherwise without their support never mind being beholden to the DUP too.

I grew up in a strongly Labour northern city. I’ve never voted Labour though as I believe in compassionate capitalism. I just can’t see me voting Conservative at the moment though because irrespective of your view on Brexit they are leading the country to a hard Brexit where the ones to suffer will be the people paying more for their goods or worse losing their jobs. Someone needs to fill the centre ground because there are millions of us ready to support them.

^A well reasoned post & in truth though it's hard to define what the 'middle/centre ground' actually is or what it's supposed to represent & what the 'centre grounds' attitudes are regards to taxation,benefits system,immigration,social services, crime, education, foreign-aid,upholding democracy,re-nationalization etc.The rag-tag bunch of independent MP's claim to be the 'centre ground' (but so do the Lib-Dems) but the only policy they believe in is stopping the largest democratic vote this country has had to leave the EU & to me that hardly represents the 'centre ground'.I'm an unswayed Brexit voter who has no political allegiance to any party but when I look across parliament for a party that respects & will uphold the Brexit vote there's only the Tories halfway house,hokey cokey version of Brexit that comes close (a no-deal will never happen).And as we are a nation divided in 2 over Brexit then parliament doesn't truly represent the voters if pretty much all political parties want to remain in the EU.

I've never pigeon-holed myself as right or left wing or even a 'centre ground' voter as I can be left-leaning on certain topics & right-leaning on others which is one of the reasons why I'm 'politically homeless'.For instance I'm all for a progressive simplified tax-system that doesn't penalize aspiration with an arbitrary high tax system but one that closes all tax loopholes & stops all tax avoidance or evasion.A tax system that doesn't dress up taxing you in one hand then paying it back in a form of in-work benefit (a sort of take away with one hand & give back with the other).I'm all for a free-education system (from playschool to university) with proper careers advice for students,a benefit system that is a genuine safety net that doesn't try to demean or degrade anyone trying to claim (like jumping through so many hoops to prove someone is incapable of work when it is clearly evident they can't or pay Assessment teams bonuses for every person they deem fit for work).And a benefits system that offers people proper guidance & training (should they need it) back into work.I support foreign-aid when needed (not some fixed arbitrary amount) particularly towards infrastructure for impoverished countries & ones that suffer emergency disasters (just not to financially richer countries than the UK).I support re-nationalization of certain industries like water,gas,electric etc but not certain others,I believe in a justice system where sentencing truly reflects the severity of the crime & a judiciary held to account & properly scrutinized for overly-lenient sentences.Where prisons should be like a military camp not a holiday camp that offers discipline, rehabilitation, education & integration back into society.A justice system that see's any UK citizen venturing off to foreign lands fighting for murderous, terrorist regimes (regardless of their age) should they return be immediately charged with Treason (added to any other charges).And I believe in a controlled but fair immigration system where both integration & ensuring infrastructure isn't overstretched is key.Just to mention a few of many of my opinions or beliefs on certain topics.

Apologies for a long winded post.Phew!!!!

^^If we apologised for long winded posts I would never stop saying sorry

Labour Peer & Southbank Show presenter Melvyn Bragg is the latest to come out & call for Jeremy Corbyn to quit citing the anti-semitism in the party.Bragg & fellow Labour Peer Robert Winston have both mentioned about possibly quitting the party & joining the newly formed Independent party where other peers may follow suit.A noble move possibly with no risk of people calling by-elections for them but would anyone really notice.

And where Government's often try to push unpopular policies through assuming no-one will notice whilst other things are grabbing media attention Justice Minister David Gauke is proposing the idea of scrapping all prison sentences under 6 months.Gauke is an anagram for absolutely fucking useless but I can understand scrapping sentences under 3 months but how about a sentence that does what it says on the tin? like if someone gets a one year sentence they serve one year & not let out on parole/good behaviour only 3-6 six months in.

I have some degree of sympathy with those MPs who have joined the 'Independent Group'. They all appear to have done the one thing politicians are too often accused of not doing i.e acting out of principle.
Not only that they have risked their long term political careers.
None of them are guaranteed to retain their seat whether it be in a by-election or indeed a General Election whenever it happens.
I have believed for most of my life that those in politics spend too much of their time climbing the greasy pole. However there is no greasy pole to climb here and ultimately the said pole could disappear altogether in time.
They appear to have left their respective former parties at least in part because of a belief that those said parties had lurched either too far to the left in the case of Labour and too far to the right in the case of the Conservatives either by virtue of shift in policy and ideology or the spirit of policy and ideology.
In the case of Labour anti semitism and a bullying culture have also been clearly mooted as reasons for departure.
And within the Conservatives the 'not listening culture' appears to have been seen to be prevalent to boot.

I can absolutely understand the notion suggested by the defecting MPs that their values have not changed but the political ground and path of their parties has shifted beneath their feet in a way that they feel is no longer compatible with the very reasons they joined each party in the first place.
To this end they have refused to put themselves up as candidates in by-elections which I can also understand.
For years I have heard people say about the major issues of the day words along the lines of 'Why can't the two main parties sit down and talk through the issues to reach a compromise?'. Well here we have an opportunity at least for a group of former Labour and Conservative MPs to do just that. Of course there is the chance for whatever reason that the opportunity may be spurned or wasted or may just fail completely.
But through most of my lifetime if not all the two main parties have been ideologically and politically at each others throats.
So any sort of opportunity by pretty much any means for MPs previously on opposite sides of the divide to come together and try to establish a new consensus is something I am reluctant to just cast aside in any great rush.
This group is small at the moment but has potential to grow in number at least in part because of Brexit. But whatever the cause whether it be Brexit, anti semitism or anything else I almost don't care what the reason is.
The important thing to me is the opportunity the situation creates and the challenge it also creates. The challenge I would lay at their door would be to say.
Can you agree a collective path forward on Brexit but also can you agree on a manifesto based on compromise and consensus for the next election and in so doing formally launch yourself as a new political party with any degree of success?
If you can do that very thing and appeal to the masses history may judge you kindly at a time when the country appears so hopelessly divided in so many ways.

I take on board the argument that refusal to engage in by-elections is seen as a betrayal of democracy. This on the basis of standing as a Labour or Conservative candidate in promotion of a party manifesto only to defect at a later date.
But I am left asking the following question to those amongst the electorate who make that argument.
How many of them have actually read the manifestos of the party they voted for either in 2016 or indeed any other election.
Amongst all the countless people I have ever got to know in my 43 years on this earth the total number of people who I know to have EVER read a manifesto is a great big fat ZERO!! So in essence the so called betrayal argument to my mind seems a little disingenous at best in this specific respect.

The real betrayal of democracy for me is thus.
Firstly with specific regard to Brexit.
The referendum campaign on both sides was a disgrace.
It should have been an opportunity to set out a positive, honest, genuine and articulate case for staying in the EU or exiting it.
What we got was a whole lot of bogus claims and counter claims, disingenuous speculation, bitterness and scaremongering.
Secondly in the light of the public vote to leave, the House of Commons, whether by accident or by design has stifled and scuppered the Brexit process.
The Conservatives and Labour have been guilty of setting what appears to be a wholly unrealistic and incompatible set of red lines and then blame each other for having those red lines and not sufficiently budging on them.
The Lib Dems never wanted Brexit in the first place and appear to try to scupper or delay it with every voting means possible.
And the SNP have always been against Brexit seeming determined to push for a second EU referendum at least in part to give themselves ammunition to call for another Scottish Independence referendum.
The MPs within the Commons have singularly failed to act in line with the democratic vote cast. The vote to leave. They have acted on the basis of their own view and not in line with the public vote. The opportunity to represent the national interest was there in the referendum campaign for both sides. That opportunity was wasted by both sides.
Most MPs are anti Brexit and remain so.
Their actions have defied the public vote and have arguably brought democracy into utter disrepute. I say that as someone who voted to remain and someone who still believes that my gut instincts told me that I did the right thing.
Thirdly, it isn't just the EU referendum that really boiled my blood.
The Scottish Independence one did too in terms of the bombastic, bitter style of campaigning with so little substance and quality of information to hand. The campaigning on both sides was full of speculative nonsense and scaremongering with a pitiful lack of positive argument in favour of independence or not.
But I would go further. Every single General Election I have ever had the opportunity to vote in has resulted in uncertainty in what to do.
This is in part due to the answer to the following question?
Which party do I trust the most?
Answer: None of them.
The campaigning in every election has seemed akin to 'Don't let the other side win or it will be the end of the world and we are all doomed'.
Endless scaremongering and bogus claim and counter claim.
I want to know a number of things.
1. What are the biggest problems you feel this country faces
2. What are your solutions?
3. Why and how will your solutions work?
4. Where will the money come from to fund your solutions?
5. Will you resign from office if your solutions fail?
I do not want a blame game. I want positive, constructive solutions.
I do not feel that either of the main political parties have stepped up to the plate in the past and am even more fearful and worried about their capacity to do so in the future.
Which brings me on to my final point about betrayal of democracy.
I, like those parliamentarians who have joined the Independent Group am deeply concerned about a Labour party that appears to have been hijacked by the hard left and a Conservative party hijacked by the hard right.
If by elections were called now my fear is Labour would end up choosing a hard left wing candidate while the Tories would nominate a hard right wing Brexiteer.
And in the end that either would get in and turf out the Independent Group candidate straight away. At a time when I feel there is a palpable and desperate need for a centre ground, moderate political force in this country the risk of mass infiltration by hard left wingers and right wingers is a threat to our national stability policy wise and otherwise.
Those amongst the electorate who are calling for immediate by elections may perhaps wish to reflect that sometimes it is worthy to be careful what you wish for.
The ultimate betrayal of democracy is to have only extreme options realistically likely to win because too many in the middle are left floundering with no political home or hope for the future. I am one of those in the middle who feels lost, stuck in an abyss of misery and despair. I hope and pray for balance and compromise.
If this Independent Group can pull off the miracle and establish a workable, meaningful consensus for the future that is somehow capable of appealing to those in the middle then maybe everyone may have cause to judge this moment more kindly than now in the years to come. I sincerely hope so however irrational it may seem.

^Unfortunately the first past the post & 2-party system is one of the architects as to why politics is rotten in this country but I will probably be pushing up daisies long before a much fairer proportional representation system see's light of day in UK politics.Take UKIP in the 2015 GE when they had over 3 & 1/2 million votes which was higher than both Lib Dems & SNP but didn't have one MP to show for it but it was the 3 & 1/2 million votes that caused David Cameron shit his pants & call the EU Ref a year later.

Regarding this new 'Independence Group' I agree that for most of them they've probably ended their time as MP's whenever a by-election or GE is called but I've always believed that if an MP doesn't believe or want to stand on a parties manifesto prior to an election then they are probably in the wrong party.I completely accept that MP's leaving the party over bullying or racism is an unforeseen circumstance & a totally reasonable justification.As I mentioned in a previous post that it cannot be right for a MP to falsely toe the party line in a GE then months later resign & then stand on a completely different manifesto that could be polar opposite to the one the originally stood on without seeking the backing of the constituency members that voted them in the first place.It does smack of hypocrisy that whilst all 11 of the MP's back a 'Peoples Vote' but they will not give their constituents the same courtesy & call a 'Constituency Peoples Vote' in a by-election.Of all of the Independent MP's I've seen very being interviewed when the question of a by-election is put to them I've seen nothing but squirming & trotting out bullshit excuses like 'their isn't enough time' or it 'wouldn't be in the interest of their constituents'.I say absolute cobblers to that.

I long for the day that we get to see more legitimate parties with something to offer people in this country for many that are disaffected with politics where we could see an end to Labour & Tories stranglehold in UK politics.The fact that many voters came out to vote in the 2016 EU Ref that don't or have never voted in GE just shows how much disaffection there is in this country.I just believe that the band of ex-Labour & Tory Mp's are offering false hope by effectively being a one trick pony with the only policy being to stop/reverse Brexit.Anna Soubry who originally left the Tory party in the early 80's to join the the SDP (which didn't work out then) only to defect again actively agreed to the Tories hard-line policies on welfare caps,Bedroom Tax etc which is completely opposed by the ex-Labour MP's.I heard in several polls that claim that should a GE be called the new independent party would get 14% of the public vote despite them only having 11 MP's (out of a total of 650 constituencies/MP's to vote for) with only party policy to sell to voters.