Have the police lost control of the streets?

You are quite right about the massaging of crime figures to make things seem better than they are but the truth is that the police have lost control of the streets. Criminals no longer fear the law and the chance of going to prison is a risk they are willing to take. The softly softly approach has failed and its time to make start dishing out long sentences and make prison a place to be feared.

I rather take the view that it is about a lot more than just police numbers, policing methods and powers all important as they are.
My concern is more directed to what has caused so many youngsters to carry knives and join gangs and end up going down all manner of wrong roads.
I have the overwhelming suspicion that erosion of community infrastructure in combination with a widening gap between the richest and poorest in society has created real problems and instability within various neighbourhoods.
With less youth clubs, after school clubs, community centres and initiatives to inspire youngsters in a positive way I worry that kids can too easily be drawn into the darker side through lack of opportunity and hope.
Disenchantment and disconnection from establishment and authority can breed pretty disastrous consequences which I fear are being realized in recent times.
With nothing to do and nowhere to go I fear for some of this country's youngsters especially those in disadvantaged local communities.
It seems as though it is all too easy for them to get tempted by all manner of wrong and rebellion.

The police are fighting fires all over the shop.
Better numbers may help, better powers also but I suspect it would still merely paper over a few cracks. The culture has to change and for that opportunities to create and do positive things within local communities need to be there.
Prevention above cure.
Reduce burden on police and courts, youth offender institutions and already overloaded jails that are so drug ridden.
Reinvest in local communities and opportunities within.
This to my mind seems a more positive way forward.

More prisons and stronger sentencing are the answer not community centres and youth clubs. Trying to understand and help these scumbags has not worked, now its time to teach them a lesson.

^ Ah yes the kill the leaf not the root approach. It's a wonder you don't see more of that as its such an affective means of getting rid of weeds

(09-03-2019 23:25 )lancealot790 Wrote:  More prisons and stronger sentencing are the answer not community centres and youth clubs. Trying to understand and help these scumbags has not worked, now its time to teach them a lesson.

^^ maybe using the army and Firing Squads and Guatnanimo bay style prison camps

doesn't the United States stull adopt the "three strikes" policy? The police needs to adopt a zero tolerance policy on knives and if knives could be chipped in way that can trace it back to the point of sale then a further increase of fines/sentences for shopkeepers/stores could go some way to eradicating part of the problem.
Online sites like E - bay and Amazon must also come under closer scrutiny as I fear knives are sold way too easily online and their procedures needs to be tightened further than they are already are, to stop youths buying online. Even if it means they have to raise their age allowance to above 21 or to even 30 before anyone is allowed on their sites even if it is to buy only or to make kitchen equipment on all department stores website adult area only and restrict young people from entering kitchen departments in store unless they are with adults/parents and they sign agreements to say they will behave responsibly in the department.

This is not a thing that has happened over night nor is it a thing that can be rectified quickly by overrought soundbites and kneejerk reactionary changes to this or that individual policy.

The root causes are systematic and endemic; and now multi-generational thing. We are reaping what we have sown from years of policy making that put the individual above society as a whole.

More than anything the people the perpetrate these crimes are a product of the massive divisions in our society. We have created an enviroment where 'evil' can fester and rippen; masses of dissenfranchised wrongly raised youths who respect the wrong things and gather together because they have had no opportunity for other structure in their lives have been allowed to drift away from society at large forgotten and ill-cared for. 

Respect for all forms of authority seems too often crippled; it is losing its grip, its power to prompt the right course in the individual because of the selfishness and entitlement our culture has promoted a priority, as worthy, for too long. The messages we have been voting for have been wrong over successive parliments, and we have invited this virus into our lives as a result.

Parenting has been devalued and demoted. Governments have become heavy-handed in thinking they can control by direct policy things that should be promoted by classes in good parenting before we get to become parents!

We raise up the wrong idols for our youth. Celebrity culture teaches them the wrong lessons.

There is a lack of coherence and cohesion to our society. A lack of idea of a common good and core values. We focus on the wrong things, the easy answers at every turn. Education, family structure, investing in people and communities on the ground (yes including policing and stronger prison sentencing for the things that really matter to the public) should be the bedrock of all our policies instead we look to business and money making at every turn. Politicians too often pander to the quick headline and their own careers over working to put the difficult things right.

Take a look a this comment by some alt commentator and ask yourself why is he making this an either/or argument?

https://twitter.com/DVATW/status/1104427761123364866

It is surely evident that the first elements on his list are linked with the second. The one is the breeding ground for the other. Ideology stops us seeing the truth so often. We are so obsessed with standing our ground, we fail to see the validity in the argument of others. We define ourselves by our devisions instead of by our common ground.

It's going to take a bloody long time and a lot of work to reverse the trend that prompted this thread; it starts with the almost impossible job of finding the right people to elect in this country.

My sister has been a Schoolteacher for 15 years & helps run after-school clubs for children both in primary & secondary schools which many of the kids enjoy & so her heart sinks when she tells me she hears other schools in the borough & around the country cut these clubs.She see's services like after-school & youth clubs vital in helping children's confidence & to bond with other kids whom they may not associate themselves with in other circumstance (ie different year-groups etc).The Government is certainly complicit in cutting funding for these services but local councils are also just as accountable for swinging the axe too.And whenever I've discussed discipline in schools she tells me that there has been a generational momentum shift in attitude between teacher-pupil relationship from the old days when pupils feared getting a telling off from a teacher or sent to the Headmaster/ mistress office.To a time now teachers fear backlash from unruly students where there's a clear erosion in attitude & respect towards teachers & how can progression be made without respect.Bullying & intimidation is still rife in schools & schools are completely complacent & impotent in dealing with it because schools are obsessed with Ofstead results where the numbers of child expulsions can be a black mark on the school stats which makes genuine reasons for expulsion fall on deaf ears & at best the very last resort.

Early intervention is key to reducing youth crime where a more stricter disciplined approach & rules that lay out set boundaries & guidelines that treat bullying & intimidation a lot more seriously than it is.I also believe the Police (as well as former criminals that have turned their lives around & stab victims showing how their lives have been affected)should be brought into schools to interview students for guidance & provide a short shop shock on the reality of committing crime & how it would hinder them in future life chances.Importantly though & this is one thing that has always infuriated me about High School Education that was prevalent in my school days in the early 90's as it is now & it is that Career Advice is absolutely shit & near non-existent.What is the point of spending 12 - 14 years of your childhood in school without proper help,guidance & a future career path in those last 3-4 years & I bet if you asked the average 12 -16 year old what they wanted to be when they left school apart from being a Celebrity or a footballer there would be plenty of shrugging shoulders or 'I don't knows' I'm afraid.Businesses ( small & large),entrepreneurs etc should be encouraged to be brought into schools speak to classes & help plant seeds of aspiration & ambition in these teenagers.

The mistake people are making is taking a Left Vs Right, Liberal Vs Authoritarian, "understand" Vs punish/deter position on this. The fact is that you need a mix of all these approaches to successfully deal with crime, and especially violent crime.

Crime rates are correlated with and likely influenced by these factors:

1) Poverty, joblessness
2) social morality - violent and criminal sub-cultural groups (gangs etc.), and/or societal-wide breakdown of ethics and behavioural norms.
3) Police and criminal justice policy, policing effectiveness and imprisonment - put simply, it is undeniable that if you lock most of criminal population up, they are not available and at large to commit crimes.
4) the age profile of the population - crime and especially violent crime is a behaviour of young males. Youthful populations --> more violent crime.


Violent crime overall has FALLEN since the mid 90s. Prior to that they counted it using different methodology so you can't compare.

Homicide however, went up 10% in the last year of figures available (once you take out the effect of the Hillsborough inquest deaths that went in to the figures after the inquest ruled manslaughter).

Anyone old enough to remember the late 70s and through to the late 80s will know that places like London were far, far more crime-ridden in terms of theft and robbery, burglary and low to moderate street violence than they are now.

Interesting thread.

My two cents, for what it's worth:

1. Mustn't confuse coincidence, correlation and causality, but it seems unlikely IMHO that there is no connection between the Government's savage cuts to BOTH policing (fewer cops) and local authorities (fewer services like libraries and youth clubs) and the rising rate of violent crime over the past few years. More money in those two areas, please, and less money pissed up the wall on Tory vanity projects like HS2 and garden bridges.

2. I'd legalise and regulate the harmless 'vice' crimes like pot and prostitution, if only to take some air out of that particular balloon. Proceeds from taxation on drugs, hookers and gambling should be ringfenced and reserved for policing and law enforcement.

3. The 'three strikes' policy in America has had some very mixed results, with some really atrocious unintended consequences and side-effects. It's baked into the legal system in many states now, but even those that have it are mostly re-thinking it. So I'm not sure that harsh sentencing rules like three-strikes, capital punishment or mandatory minimums have the 'messaging' effect that many think they'll have on everyday street criminals. A better deterrent, in my view, is zero-tolerance for petty crime and having the resources to pursue, prosecute and punish criminals appropriately for their first offence, rather than letting them off with warnings and allowing bad behaviour to escalate. So, ultimately, it always comes back to resources and funding.