Hearing Is Believing??

(15-01-2024 23:07 )Boomerangutangangbang Wrote:  What you don't want is less talented artists sounding as good as those who are far superior, if that's possible.

For me (and possibly for yourself as well?) the tone and personality of a singer's voice are a huge part of what makes a great vocal, and thankfully no amount of technical skullduggery can replicate that.
Can't polish a turd, as they say

But even the most natural, relatively untreated vocal will still have a little enhancement though, whether it's a little compression to even out the volume levels or a subtle touch of distortion to bring out the character, along with "de-essing" techniques to reduce siblant consonants.
Thankfully, however these are just time honoured methods of making a great vocal sound even better, rather than making a poor one sound great.

....Which leads back to Hornball's original question/poll:
I think using available tools to enhance a good singer is fine, but using them to repair a crap vocal is a bit naff - even though I'm guilty of having done that myself in the past.
In today's commercial music scene, it's probably a necessary evil. Record companies know that in general if a vocal's out of tune, it drastically limits radio play and sales, so I doubt it could or would ever be banned.

^^ I'll come clean & admit to checking the meaning of sibilant (consonants), psst shhhh. I like learning new words.
The compression thing was what I was getting at with CD's & vinyl. Everything seemed to get rounded out too much with the advent of CD's.

+1 to that!
Love the convenience of cds but much prefer the glorious warm sound of vinyl.
And my turn to come clean - I had to check the spelling of vinyl... I always get the i and the y the wrong way round

Yeah, for a while there, everybody was trying to make their cd louder than than everyone else's by using extreme compression (known as brick wall limiting) and the result, for me anyway, was a flat harsh sound - the rounding out that you mentioned.
My apologies, by the way if any of this sounds preachy or condescending.... I tend to go off on one when it comes to music, as you can probably tell

^^ Not at all, you can tell it's a passion.

Superb contributions both of you Booms and Fatboy. Much appreciated! I too distinguish between uses of these 'plugins' as they now are, effect versus correction. I don't like the idea of someone's vocal that isn't up to standard, being artificially 'corrected'. However, the 'Cher effect', I am fine with that so long as that use of the technology is either clear and obvious, or made clear by a disclaimer note along the lines of a warning for explicit lyrics/content.

I come back though to the trend for 'fixing/correcting' a vocal - particularly in pitch - which didn't need to be changed. You lose, as you both have said in terms, expression. There is a guy who has a Youtube Channel 'Produce like a Pro', I would love 'Fil' from wings of pegasus, or somebody of equal 'stature' to ask him if as a producer, he has used these tools??, for what reason??, and if not, does he believe they should be permitted at all.

As I said previously, to alter Randy Meisner or Celine Dion (and others) after the fact is not acceptable to me. It is trying to make them sound like people have set out to make singers of today (who maybe 'can't sing) sound, and then try to say that they were 'no better' back in the day, when they undoubtedly were, at least in large number! Can you imagine what 'Bohemian Rhapsody' and the one and only Frontman F Mercury, would sound like today??

Thanks for the 'thanks' for the Topic post btw, save your applause though, as it was intended to be a poll between the 4 options listed! I stuffed that up again!!

NB. Your point Fatboy about the use of Pitch Correction Autotune as being a 'necessary evil' may be correct in practice, but is it justified?? Commercial world or not?? If someone can't sing (or properly play an instrument), leave the arena - simple as!! It is seeking in one way, to make Andy Warhol's prophecy 'Everyone will be famous for at least 15 mins'?? a reality, whether they deserve that fame or not! I say no! We have enough talentless wannabes in these 'reality' shows', surely we don't want to compromise - any further at any rate - the music industry! One - and I stress this is my own subjective view point - Katy Perry is more than enough thank you!

(16-01-2024 16:41 )fatboy77 Wrote:  +1 to that!
Love the convenience of cds but much prefer the glorious warm sound of vinyl.
And my turn to come clean - I had to check the spelling of vinyl... I always get the i and the y the wrong way round

Yeah, for a while there, everybody was trying to make their cd louder than than everyone else's by using extreme compression (known as brick wall limiting) and the result, for me anyway, was a flat harsh sound - the rounding out that you mentioned.
My apologies, by the way if any of this sounds preachy or condescending.... I tend to go off on one when it comes to music, as you can probably tell

It is neither preachy or condescending! I love learning all this stuff. Not least to assist me in determining the use - or otherwise - of technical 'trickery'

I saw a video (guess where) of James Cordon trying (and failing) to sing 'Africa' by TOTO. He was 'god awful' (sorry James but facts are facts) Introduce autotune/pitch correction, and voila, you have J Cordon the 'seasoned singer' Obviously this was for example purposes to make a video, but it points to the importance of this topic when the same is being done to place a nobody in the position of a somebody. Add the fact that it is being used during live performances too, are we certain that we will get what we expect from a concert we have bought a ticket for?? Mind you, if concert venues are being sold out for ABBA 'Avatars' apparently nobody cares! At least we know that the vocals are taken from the actual band members (or do we??)

Sorry Hornball - I forgot it was a poll

I'd say regarding historic performances, a definite no to autotune. They're snapshots of their time, many being classics, so I say no - leave them.
Imagine if they started pitch correcting something like The Stooges' Raw Power album, or some old soul or new wave classics. It would ruin them imho.

Not sure if it warrants a warning sticker, but perhaps it should be mentioned somewhere in the credits.

Warren from produce like a pro quite often uses drum samples to bolster and even sometimes totally replace limp drum recordings, so i reckon he'd have no qualms using pitch correction where he felt it was needed. But altering an existing classic historical recording? probably not.

(16-01-2024 18:53 )fatboy77 Wrote:  Sorry Hornball - I forgot it was a poll

I'd say regarding historic performances, a definite no to autotune. They're snapshots of their time, many being classics, so I say no - leave them.
Imagine if they started pitch correcting something like The Stooges' Raw Power album, or some old soul or new wave classics. It would ruin them imho.

Not sure if it warrants a warning sticker, but perhaps it should be mentioned somewhere in the credits.

Warren from produce like a pro quite often uses drum samples to bolster and even sometimes totally replace limp drum recordings, so i reckon he'd have no qualms using pitch correction where he felt it was needed. But altering an existing classic historical recording? probably not.

No stress fatboy So did I apparently, as I said I'll get my coat!

(16-01-2024 18:19 )hornball Wrote:  [quote='fatboy77' pid='2839494' dateline='1705423307']
the same is being done to place a nobody in the position of a somebody.

That's been going on for years to some degree I suppose.
There's a fantastic documentary available about the Wrecking Crew that you might enjoy.
It's about the in-demand group of session musicians who played on tons of albums and singles from the 60s right through to the 80s, usually remaining anonymous while the bands they recorded for took credit.
You'll either enjoy it, or get outraged to boiling point

(16-01-2024 19:08 )fatboy77 Wrote:  

(16-01-2024 18:19 )hornball Wrote:  [quote='fatboy77' pid='2839494' dateline='1705423307']
the same is being done to place a nobody in the position of a somebody.

That's been going on for years to some degree I suppose.
There's a fantastic documentary available about the Wrecking Crew that you might enjoy.
It's about the in-demand group of session musicians who played on tons of albums and singles from the 60s right through to the 80s, usually remaining anonymous while the bands they recorded for took credit.
You'll either enjoy it, or get outraged to boiling point

Cheers, thanks for the heads up! I am on blood pressure meds, I will have to strap myself to A BP cuff and monitor as I go!! ( I get the reason for session musicians (original player ill etc with time constraints) but no reason not to acknowledge them. I will wait to watch and judge then!