Europe, Referendum & Brexit (formerly Europe..IN or OUT??)

(13-08-2018 14:17 )HannahsPet Wrote:  The Turks dont wanna be part of the EU its Billy Bullshitters like Boris and Farage have been saying this Erdogyan will not give up the dictatorship he has now to have free and fair elections and he has been pissing the germans off with all the politcial rallys being held in germany for him. and the germans took the hump hence the ozil situation

i can see Turkey leaving Nato and joing forces with Russia

yep all this fake news...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world...74166.html

That was from March before elections and before all the crisis of there own making

(13-08-2018 11:34 )southsidestu Wrote:  If there were to be a second referendum Remain MPs would respect a leave vote because they are respecting the leave vote now. Most have said that they respect the result of the referendum, even if the do not agree, any talk of efforts to thwart Brexit is merely drum banging by the right wing media & establishment. Most of the MPs on Parliament voted to trigger Article 50, including your friend Anna Soubry. In fact the only MP in the Government that voted against it was Ken Clarke.

When it comes to Remain voters, I cannot speak for all them but in regards to me you are right, I will never accept Brexit. It is in stark contrast to pretty much my entire belief system and who I am. As soon as we leave the campaign to rejoin begins. This is what makes it all pointless and unnecessary really. The majority of people under the age of 50 did not vote for Brexit and yet we will be the ones that have to live with it. One day millennials will be the largest voting block and the ones in power and I am here to tell you now we are going to take this country back into the EU and if it means using The Euro and being part of Schengen, so be it. If Brexiteers don't like that. Tough. By then that will be the will of the people

And so in the event of a 2nd referendum the MP's who already be-grudgingly accept the result the first time around would do so again & so for me as a Brexiteer (& would vote Brexit no matter how any never-rendums are called) what would be the point of another vote as for me there is no political gain to be made whatsoever (double or quits isn't really an attractive option).

When one can clearly see there's a fair share of Peers in the House of Lords & MP's being interviewed on news channels & political shows openly admitting they want to thwart Brexit the notion isn't some illusion cooked up by the right-wing media/establishment as you say.In fact there was a report in several papers a few days ago (take it with a pinch/bucket of salt)claiming that with Theresa Mays Chequers proposal which is pretty much a soft Brexit, MP's like of Amber Rudd,Dominic Grieve & Anna Soubry (oh hell yes) to name a few would lose their seats in a General Election a result.I certainly believe in the notion that a softening of Brexit (or a Brexit betrayal) by both Tories & Labour (at least in ideology) where we effectively stay in the single- market (accepting all 4 freedoms) & staying in the customs union then those borrowed votes both parties got from UKIP in last years GE will go back to UKIP or possibly a more extremest right-wing party.

I do share voter's disillusionment with what seems to be incompetence (on both sides but more so the government) but I don't quite share your pesimism that we'll crash out on a no deal.Incompetence aside I think heads will be banged together with some sort of common-sense prevailing & a deal will be thrashed out as both sides will take a substantial hit otherwise.The UK will take a hit for sure but the EU have over a 90 billion trade surplus with us & countries like France & Germany could see a upto a 5% hit on their economies,Ireland will likely fall into recession & no matter what the EU say MI5 is one of the best security operations in the world & will want continued co-operation.
As much as I am unhappy with the whole Chequers proposal (I would prefer the Canada model) Theresa May or her negotiators cannot afford to water down her proposals or offer more concessions.I do agree with old shiny-face Michael Gove & fellow MP James Cleverley when they say get a deal then once we have left un-pick certain elements that may hinder us later.

And lastly you say the majority people under 50 didn't vote Brexit but I did & I'm in my early forties & having worked full-time since the age of 16 (over 25 years work experience & suffered the odd times of financial hardship & recessions whilst we've been in the EU) so with age comes a bit of wisdom I'd like to think & having lived through various governments that promise you the moon on a stick & unicorn when in reality when in power they offer you nothing more than a horse-shit sandwich.And should there come a time when as you say the millenials become the largest voting block & take over the country by then the EU will become a distant memory (depending whenever Germany decide to pull the plug) so good luck with that.

vote on the facts, not a fantasy. a second referendum would solve this. my problem is the leave campaign was a lot of lies and supposition. it affects where i live more than most so it's important to vote on the 'facts' and get it right. and if i thought brexit was for the best after all that, i would change my vote.

i just want an informed choice.

(13-08-2018 17:54 )cwpussylover Wrote:  

(13-08-2018 17:42 )babelover48 Wrote:  i expect riot police are on standby In Berlin

they used to water cannon them...now they give them free drinks and refreshments

Where's Boris' water cannon when we'll need it I ask? More than likely the minute we use it, there'll be a hosepipe ban imposed in the south east

(16-08-2018 08:19 )terence Wrote:  vote on the facts. not a fantasy. a second referendum would solve this. my problem is the leave campaign was a lot of lies and supposition. it affects where i live more than most so it's important to vote on the 'facts' and get it right. and if i thought brexit was for the best after all that, i would change my vote.

i just want an informed choice.

I agree we need an informed choice which was never fully explained first time round. If a second referendum was to be held I'd still vote the same way. At the same time, are we the public DEFINTELY going to have any final say on any deal that is reached? In my mind I get the feeling that if we did get the final say/vote, would the Govt accept it?

To have a second referendum there would have to be changes to what was being voted for in the first place.
If the EU really wanted us to stop they could give us a few of the consessions that David Cameron asked for.

And then there could be a justifaction for a new referendum

There is going to have to be one in the end because nothing will get thru the parliament

could have another general election but guessing would be the fucking same who ever is in power. the thought of Boris Rees Mogg or Jeremy corybn as PM scares the fuck outta me its like asking to decide which bollock you wanna lose

easiest way is a 2nd ref legally binding one !!!!

was reading that in the back ground with diplomats talking about putting article 50 on hold so not leaving in march 2019 and trying to sort things out without the need of a no deal

but whatever happens its a clusterfuck and doesnt make this county look good either way

I have doubts that even if there was a second referendum it would not be legally binding parliament will always find a way around it

There is no point in a 2nd referendum. Polls {I know} show most people don't want one, it would be extremely divisive, and it just aint gonna happen. The nearest we might get to it, is a general election, which would turn in to a sort of referendum, as labour are moving more towards a brino Brexit, and the tories , once they've dumped May, going for a hard brexit