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+---- Thread: Europe, Referendum & Brexit (formerly Europe..IN or OUT??) (/showthread.php?tid=66189)
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RE: Europe..IN or OUT?? - lancealot790 - 25-06-2016 14:43
Of course the leave camp would be complaining, saying exactly the same things as the remain camp and presenting a petition to parliament. Nothing is going to change for the next two years so people should just carry on as normal and wait to see what happens in the eurozone before panicking over things that have yet to happen.
RE: Europe..IN or OUT?? - M-L-L - 25-06-2016 14:56
(25-06-2016 13:08 )circles_o_o_o Wrote:(25-06-2016 12:32 )the downtrodden Wrote: It would be crazy not to have a second referendum, because how can people be held to a vote which took place years before?
You could argue that is what we just did. A second chance for people who had no say in 1975.
When the 1975 referendum was held, the UK had only been in the EEC 2 years.
The main reason for holding a referendum in 1975 was same as the main reason for holding one now : the PM - in that case a Labour one Harold Wilson - was under huge political pressure from a sizeable chunk of his own party to get out of Europe, the UK had been taken into the EEC by the Conservatives arguably without that really being the subject of an overwhelming mandate of the voters - the 1970 election victory for the Conservatives over Labour was fairly unexpected and the EEC arguably hadn't been the main issue, as ever it was "the economy,stupid".
There was no way Conservative PM Heath was going to put the policy to a referendum, being absolutely committed to it; and the Labour Party was split on the issue also.
A referendum was seized on by Wilson as the device to get himself off the hook (despite him having refused to endorse it as official Labour policy before then - it having been repeatedly proposed and argued for by his arch-nemesis "loony left" Tony Benn) just as Cameron was trying to do this time around with his own Eurosceptics.
Labour had actually opposed entry into the EEC as the legislation was going through Parliament in the early 1970s; arguably purely from an electoral opportunism as the best chance to overturn the government and force another election (Opportunist because this was despite Labour having tried to get the UK into the EEC themselves when in government in the late 60s and being vetoed by the French, as the Tories had also been before in the 50s); and entry into the EEC in 1973 was only passed through the House of Commons by means of a substantial chunk of Labour MPs repeatedly rebelling against their own party's official policy of opposition. Wilson was arguably uncommitted to the EEC for a long time but eventually decided "in" was the lesser of two evils and so in 1975 his tactic was the same as Cameron's : to argue that the terms and conditions of entry had been wrong and needed renegotiation. But this was arguably really only a cover against accusations that he was an opportunist with no principles doing a complete U-turn - having been against EEC entry when in opposition, but then supporting remaining in once back in government.
2 years wasn't really enough time for the UK public to build up any real feeling of antagonism against the EEC, and the powers and remit of it were different in those days than the current EU. The voters arguably also had more of a sense of deference towards politicians and the opinions of "experts". The UK was an economic basket case in the early 1970s and the EEC had been seen since the 1960s by UK political establishment as a possible way of bolstering the faltering performance of the country trade-wise. Tory outcast Enoch Powell was whipping up racial antagonism in his speeches* - to great acclaim of sections of both right and left-wing voters in much the same way as Farage.
So nothing's really new ever....probably the timescale until the next referendum will be shorter though
*directed towards immigrants from British colonies, rather than Continental Europe; but same difference really.
Racism isn't to do with skin colour - it's an emotional response based primarily on fear and is really to do with tribalism and fear of the "unlike" in many different ways ?
RE: Europe..IN or OUT?? - lovebabes56 - 25-06-2016 15:07
Petition for 2nd referendum now has close t 2m signatures it will be debated in Parliament but it doesn't mean that they will call one wonder how may times CW signed it?
I noticed votes were cast in Gibraltar what would happen to their status in Europe?
RE: Europe..IN or OUT?? - Charlemagne - 25-06-2016 15:10
Britain want to trigger the exit clause in the autumn but a lot of the other EU leaders are pushing for talks to begin as once.
European Union leaders want to shore up the bloc and prevent a contagion of copy-cat referendums pulling it apart.
RE: Europe..IN or OUT?? - lovebabes56 - 25-06-2016 15:15
I would say fuck 'em make them wait - this will done on our terms not theirs...they have shafted us enough over the years
RE: Europe..IN or OUT?? - Matt77 - 25-06-2016 15:17
It might not just be disappointed Remainers who will want a second referendum in due course. Just listen to, and read about, the speed at which the promises of the Leave campaign are unravelling:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03zfw9m
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/leave-campaign-rows-back-key-pledges-immigration-nhs-spending
RE: Europe..IN or OUT?? - lovebabes56 - 25-06-2016 15:21
typical of any political campaigners - once they win they cannot guarantee anything they pledged - maybe it is time we took back control of the country from our own MP'S!!
Referendum riots anyone?
RE: Europe..IN or OUT?? - Scots Napoleon - 25-06-2016 15:25
(25-06-2016 11:59 )Censorship :-( Wrote: The Scottish Parliament is a devolved Parliament, and can only legislate for areas that are not 'reserved'; Westminster retains power in respect of these (many) reserved issues, such as defence, international relations etc.
You're absolutely right - in theory anyway.
The more interesting question is would a British Prime Minister try to block Scotland from going its own way? Surely that would eventually prove to be a vain attempt to shore up the Union and leave the Prime Minister with an embarrassing failure on his hands? A major clash between the Scottish and UK governments and the UK government eventually backing down? A 62% Remain vote in Scotland is a decisive margin is it not?
RE: Europe..IN or OUT?? - Matt77 - 25-06-2016 15:26
(25-06-2016 15:15 )babelover48 Wrote: I would say fuck 'em make them wait - this will done on our terms not theirs...they have shafted us enough over the years
UK vs 27 EU States - this will done on our terms?
Wake up for God's sake. We used to extract deals and rebates in our favour because we often used our veto or threatened to walk but now we've voted to leave completely and have no cards to play.
RE: Europe..IN or OUT?? - wackawoo - 25-06-2016 15:31
(25-06-2016 15:17 )Matt77 Wrote: It might not just be disappointed Remainers who will want a second referendum in due course. Just listen to, and read about, the speed at which the promises of the Leave campaign are unravelling:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03zfw9m
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/leave-campaign-rows-back-key-pledges-immigration-nhs-spending
I'm actually swaying now to it being an ok idea, at least give it a go, I think poeple have been scared byt he markets and pound collapsing, the remain people can jump on this.