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+---- Thread: People's Vote (/showthread.php?tid=75253)
RE: People's Vote - davy crockett - 14-03-2019 11:01
(14-03-2019 10:16 )SecretAgent Wrote: This route would honour the 2016 result but put to bed the nonsense that all brexiteers understood when they voted that No Deal was going to be the right way to leave. That is simply not true as my recent discussions with 8 leave voters has confirmed (even though 5 of them now would vote for a no deal option). They are educated people who felt agreeing an exit deal would be relatively easy and who considered themselves well informed at the time of the 2016 vote.
I don't see how anyone can reasonably argue that they voted for leaving without a deal, as it simply wasn't an available option in 2016. John Simpson of the BBC recently commented on this, saying that he'd carefully reviewed all the statements made by the leave campaigners in the 12 months before the referendum was held and he couldn't find a single instance of leaving without a deal being mooted.
In fact leave campaigners were adamant that it was impossible that such a thing would happen, giving plenty of assurances that a deal would be secured and that it would be secured very easily. Farage was the ringleader in all this, saying how the EU would give us everything we wanted and it would be a very easy negotiation, but others like Rees-Mogg and Johnson made very similar comments.
The leaving without a deal idea, not suggested or considered by anyone before the 2016 vote, only began to be an option when Prime Minister May introduced it as a possibility, saying that it had to be her deal or no deal at all. This was no doubt meant as a mere threat, to swing people behind her deal, but since so many of the leavers hated May's deal they began to see the previously unthinkable no deal idea as the better option.
RE: People's Vote - schvall - 14-03-2019 11:21
(14-03-2019 10:16 )SecretAgent Wrote: There should be 2 options on the ballot paper
- Leave with No Deal
- Leave with a deal backed by a Parliamentary majority
But what about leave voters in 2016 who won't countenance a no deal Brexit and don't like the deal backed by Parliament either, which could still turn out to be May's deal. In other words, leave voters who now think remaining would be better than what's on offer? How are they supposed to vote?
RE: People's Vote - SecretAgent - 14-03-2019 11:56
^ That is the problem and indeed encapsulates the issue that we have now where some brexiteers repeatedly claim they know leave voters understood it would/could be a no deal brexit yet even amongst their leaders they are not aligned behind No Deal. The ERG have become a fundamental wing of the Conservatives claiming they know best yet I can't recall a time when they ever spoke for the majority of Conservative MP's. They claim what a large majority voted to impose Article 50 and write the Leave Date in the UK legislation but I would suggest that those votes showed Parliament seeking to deliver on the referendum result whilst the majority of MP's believed a satisfactory deal would be reached
There is no perfect solution but maybe just maybe a majority of voters can align behind an option that is not No Deal and that would include Remain voters such as myself thereby unifying the people with the will of Parliament. If the ERG believe that NO Deal is the will of the people let them campaign for that and get the confirmation of the people.
I was and still am a confirmed Remainer but I accepted long ago that we we should respect the referendum result. I'd love to Remain but I accept that the damage to democracy of ignoring the last result would be great. We can't even be sure how a referendum which included Remain would go as some people are more entrenched and others will have changed their
minds plus the voter population has changed.
I love my country and the current impasse is terrible. Compromise is needed and as I see it at the moment in Parliament there is little of that happening particularly within the ERG.
RE: People's Vote - elgar1uk - 14-03-2019 12:36
(14-03-2019 10:16 )SecretAgent Wrote: There should be 2 options on the ballot paper
- Leave with No Deal
- Leave with a deal backed by a Parliamentary majority
But surely if there's a deal backed by a Parliamentary majority then it's game, set and match anyway.
I don't understand why there would be a need for a second referendum?
RE: People's Vote - mikedafc - 14-03-2019 12:45
For those wanting a second vote, why would anyone respect the outcome of it when the result of the first one is not being respected
RE: People's Vote - SecretAgent - 14-03-2019 13:49
(14-03-2019 12:36 )elgar1uk Wrote:(14-03-2019 10:16 )SecretAgent Wrote: There should be 2 options on the ballot paper
- Leave with No Deal
- Leave with a deal backed by a Parliamentary majority
But surely if there's a deal backed by a Parliamentary majority then it's game, set and match anyway.
I don't understand why there would be a need for a second referendum?
So that the public can unite behind a solution and if the choice is an alternative deal then the hardline No Deal favouring Brexiteers would not be able to claim Brexit was being stolen as the voting public would have chosen the type of Brexit. It could of course confirm their hardline Brexit approach.
RE: People's Vote - SecretAgent - 14-03-2019 13:50
(14-03-2019 12:45 )mikedafc Wrote: For those wanting a second vote, why would anyone respect the outcome of it when the result of the first one is not being respected
It would be respecting the first vote because the only choices would be what type of Brexit.
RE: People's Vote - SecretAgent - 14-03-2019 17:10
I’m not surprised at your response. I’m looking to find a Brexit deal that Parliament and the people support. Sadly there is no compromise from hardline Brexiteers. I care about my country & even though I don’t agree with Brexit I am not asking to reverse the referendum but to find a Brexit that unites the country. You it seems prefer disunity.
Edit
I’ll leave this here as it shows my views on a rant by one of our hardline brexiteer forum members which was deleted as I replied. Funny how accepting a democratic vote and suggesting a democratic way forward to unite the country behind a Brexit solution is so terrifying to hardline Brexiteers.
RE: People's Vote - Jack the Nipper - 14-03-2019 17:33
I cannot understand why Parliament can't carry out the indicative votes for the next week & find out what there is consensus for what sort of deal they are in favour of (which will probably end up being in the Customs Union).And then Parliament must decide between that & the TM's Deal (which we are told was the best deal available by the EU).Yesterday was used block 'No Deal' & the indicative votes can be used to kill of the 2nd Referendum option & so it would only be reasonable to expect to take 2nd Referendum off the table as well which will then harden minds to coalesce behind a deal.
The most devious & treacherous person in the Commons is pipsqueak John Bercow who refused to table the amendment (that was endorsed by over a 100 MP's) that would have effectively taken the 2nd Referendum option off the table.Instead Bercow has opted to table 4 amendments that all intend to block or delay Brexit with Sarah Woolaston's amendment that calls for Article 50 to be delayed in aid for a 2nd Referendum which is supposed to be used as a bell-weather to gauge the mood in the House towards a 2nd Ref with Sky News reporting that neither Tories or Labour will back it.
RE: People's Vote - HannahsPet - 14-03-2019 17:36
Because they need 5 fucking hours of debates over a simple question so windbags can go over and over again
wish we could lock them in there and threaten to execute one of them every hour until they come up with a deal
ERG first lets see if they are willing to die for there beliefs
