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RE: LIVERPOOL for sale - Mister Gummidge - 30-07-2010 12:49
The formation I was getting at is Hodgson's tried and tested 4-4-1-1.
---------GK--------
DF---DF---DF---DF
----------CM-------
WM--CM-------WM
-----------AM------
-------ST-----------
That's about the best representation I can give of it, without a pen and paper I'm afraid. It relies on having two central midfielders, one of whom is expected to do little except break up opposition play and sits very deep, while the other is deployed further forward as a playmaker with fewer positional responsibilities. Two wingers, often playing on the "wrong" wing (right footer on the left and vice versa), only one of whom is expected to play a purely attacking game in any given attack, the other is expected to tuck in from the wing and provide cover against opposition breaks with the two central midfielders. Of the two forwards, one is an out and out striker and the other is expected to float around a little deeper, moving to the opposite flank to whichever side the attack is built from, i.e. if Cole is the one building play on the left, the split striker would go to the right flank. If it's Maxi from the right, he would go left side.
When it's written down, it sounds counter-intuitive and complicated, but when used in a match it's a very fluid and well organised system, which Hodgson (amongst others, including Sacchi, Lippi, Cappello, Ferguson in the 90's, George Graham, Steve McLaren and Sven) has deployed successfully throughout his career, except at Blackburn, where a bunch of players with huge egos weren't willing to accept his methods. The primary problems with it are that it requires players do hours of positional drills in training everyday, which many players find dull, and requires a small, well drilled squad, combined with the facts that only one player in the system is given any real freedom to roam at will and players are expected to be able to switch into any other role in their given area, as active play or tactical requirement demands. Most players aren't happy being cogs in a machine these days. I find it hard to believe Gerrard would go back to being a world class disciplined midfield playmaker (by far his best position, where he's one of the best in the world), after years of Rafa allowing him free reign to be a slightly above average loose forward (where he's effective, but no better than 10 or 15 other players in the EPL alone). The same with Carragher. His positional awareness means he can play anywhere in the back four or as a holding midfielder, but he gets stroppy if he's not deployed as a centre back. Torres may not be 100% happy spending most of a match running down channels to make space for the other two designated attackers within the system.
As for a Mascherano replacement, De Jong is a better like for like replacement, but Flamini has the advantage of being able to fill in competently at either full back position should the situation arise. It's a case of choosing specialist who excels in one role, or having a player who's fractionally worse in the holding role, but provides multiple tactical options. In an ideal world, it would be both of course, with Lucas being moved on as well. Being a United fan, I would prefer that not to happen. Anything which keeps Lucas in the Liverpool team is fine by me.
RE: LIVERPOOL for sale - groundnpound - 30-07-2010 13:20
---------------------------Reina---------------------------
--Johnson--------Carra--------Agger-------------Bridge/Salcido
Milner----------Gerrard----------------Aquilani----------Babel
-------------------------Cole----------------------------
-------------------------Torres--------------------------
Subs:Cavalieri,Kelly,Wilson,Pacheco,Lucas,Jovanovic,Ngog
I'd be happy to see this side walk out against Arsenal.
I've got Milner in the side as i think he'll end up with us this summer.
Mascherano will be sold. I think Kuyt might go to Inter aswell, which would free up the funds for Milner and the slot on the right wing.
Bridge or Salcido will do me nicely at Left back.
Don't have a new striker to add to the squad yet... Just don't know who's out there for us.
Can see Stevie operating like a quarter back from now on and dictating the play like Xabi used to.Ryan Babel will have to be given some confidence from Roy, no doubt he will.So hopefully we'll see him fulfill his potential.Finally.
With Joe supporting Fernando.
RE: LIVERPOOL for sale - groundnpound - 30-07-2010 13:50
Let's hear 10 - 15 players as good as Stevie in behind the centre forward then Mister Gummidge
RE: LIVERPOOL for sale - Mister Gummidge - 30-07-2010 14:26
Arshavin, Van Persie, Milner, Tevez, Rooney, Modric, Gera, Nasri, Cahill, Giggs, Kalou, J. Cole, Robinho (technicality, I know. He's still a City player, though), Niko Kranjcar and Kevin Prince Boateng. Then there's Silva who's just arrived, as well the many players playing abroad who do this to a similar level, such as Pedro, Iniesta, Messi, Ronaldo, Kaka, Forlan and Aguero (they swap the job from week to week), Oezil and Ronaldinho, without having to think too hard about it.
Not all of these players fill that role on week in, week out basis, but the point is, if Liverpool lost Gerrard from the loose forward role, any of those mentioned above would fill the role equally well and possibly better in a few cases (Tevez, Rooney, Cahill and Modric in particular from this country. All of the foreign based players I mentioned). When Gerrard is played as a central midfield playmaker, with instructions to hold his position and affect the game from the central third of the pitch which he actually follows, like he did under Houllier and Evans, there are very few who are his equal, let alone superior to him. In the world today, Xabi Alonso, Xavi, possibly Pirlo (although I wouldn't argue with anyone who claimed he's past it) maybe Schweinsteiger if the WC was anything to go by. Can you name any others? I can't think of any with Gerrard's ability to dictate a game. That's why I loved Rafa so much. To a United fan, a Liverpool manager who takes one of the world's best central midfielders and makes him into a better than average, but not exactly world beating, loose forward is a man to be cherished.
RE: LIVERPOOL for sale - groundnpound - 30-07-2010 15:39
I take it you must be joking Mister Gummidge.
Modric,Gera,Nasri,Cahill,Kalou,Robinho,Kranjcar and Boateng are not in the same league as Gerrard!
I know who u support but come on lad.
Milner,Giggs and Kalou.These guys hardly ever play in the hole.
I do agree that Steven should be dropped back into the middle and i hope Roy thinks the same.
But saying you loved Rafa because he played Gerrard in the hole i don't understand?
Gerrard and Torres are an unbelievable combo up top.
But with Gerrard in centre Mid and Joe and Fernando up ahead.I think it's looking good.
RE: LIVERPOOL for sale - KateP - 30-07-2010 16:33
I think we might see gerrard back in the center and joe cole behind torres even when the new striker comes in also with mascherano wanting out I would love to buy milner from under citys nose I would also look at Mathieu Flamini as he is only going for 5 million the squad we have now milner new lb and striker we would have a very good season
RE: LIVERPOOL for sale - mitchell - 30-07-2010 23:28
(30-07-2010 12:49 )Mister Gummidge Wrote: Being a United fan,
Considering your in this thread i didn't expect that, there for i disagree with every thing you say!!!(30-07-2010 14:26 )Mister Gummidge Wrote: if Liverpool lost Gerrard from the loose forward role, any of those mentioned above would fill the role equally well and possibly better in a few cases (Tevez, Rooney, Cahill and Modric in particular from this country.
Looking at 1 of the names in the above statment you should be ashamed of your self
i will not accept this!!!
Whats with everyone talking about 4-4-2, it's an outdated system that no longer belongs in the premier leagues top 6/7 positions, i know Roy Hodgson is the new manager but come on, 4-3-3 is the best formation to be playing especially with the players we currently have, look at Spain & Barca!!!
RE: LIVERPOOL for sale - Josh - 30-07-2010 23:59
Torres is only fit for half a season and when injured, Gerrard is wasted as a second striker. There is no better player then Gerrard from central midfield when he dictates the play and executes his great variation of passes. Without Alonso, Liverpool really struggled to create chances and Gerrard up front made little impact. Thats why I too hope he is back to his best position. He is just that damn good that he can play anywhere.
I also hear that Liverpool have enquired about Christian Poulsen to replace Mascherano. I hope thats all it is................. They still need a good left back as Insua was a liability last season. I can see the manager using Daniel Agger there with the limited funds we have?
I predict that we will finish ahead of Man Utd next season................................................................ Still wont win the league though.
RE: LIVERPOOL for sale - mitchell - 31-07-2010 00:45
Ummmm my last post was done as 3 separate posts & now it's morphed into one
how that happen Batman???
RE: LIVERPOOL for sale - Mister Gummidge - 31-07-2010 03:58
(30-07-2010 15:39 )groundnpound Wrote: I take it you must be joking Mister Gummidge.
Modric,Gera,Nasri,Cahill,Kalou,Robinho,Kranjcar and Boateng are not in the same league as Gerrard!
I know who u support but come on lad.
Milner,Giggs and Kalou.These guys hardly ever play in the hole.
I do agree that Steven should be dropped back into the middle and i hope Roy thinks the same.
But saying you loved Rafa because he played Gerrard in the hole i don't understand?
Gerrard and Torres are an unbelievable combo up top.
But with Gerrard in centre Mid and Joe and Fernando up ahead.I think it's looking good.
I agree, Gera and Boateng aren't in the same league as Gerrard at all. Provided Gerrard is playing in his best position. Gerrard's best position is central midfield. As a loose forward, he's good but not great by any stretch of the imagination. Put Gera or Boateng behind a fully fit Torres and watch them rack up the assists, just like Gerrard did. Gerrard was made to look particularly good in the role because he was playing behind arguably the best out and out striker in the world, much the same as Lampard is made to look better than he is for having Drogba ahead of him. Without Torres there, Gerrard wasn't able to open up defences very often. No supremely clever run, meant Gerrard looked a lesser player behind a mediocre player such as Ngog. A great player makes a supremely clever pass to find a mediocre player. Something Gerrard repeatedly failed to do in Torres' absences.
To claim that Modric, Cahill, Kalou, Robinho and Krancjar aren't in Gerrard's class as a loose forward is simply club bias, any side in the league would be better for having one of those players in the squad. I've spent the whole summer praying Fergie would stick in a big money offer for Modric. Doesn't look like it's going to happen though.
As for Milner hardly ever playing in the hole, ask a Villa fan. That's where he spent most of last season, with Young and Downing on the flanks and Petrov sitting deep. Giggs has played easily 150 matches in that position, a hell of a lot more if you tote up the 20 and 30 minute spells in that role because of substitutions and late game tactical changes. Kalou played most of his early career as loose forward at Feyenoord and Ancelotti used him there quite often last season for Chelsea. That's how he scored so many goals. He certainly wasn't a right sided forward like the Sky Sports formation graphics would have you believe. Chelsea played more of a 4-3-1-2, like Uruguay in the WC, or the Spanish national sides of old.The reason I loved Rafa for playing Gerrard in the hole? He converted one of the best midfielders in the world into a fairly useful loose forward. That's a net loss for the team. Liverpool were substantially weakened with Alonso in Madrid, Gerrard in the hole and Torres missing. That loss wouldn't have been felt as keenly, had he played Benayoun or Babel in the hole and played Gerrard in the midfield playmaker role he fills with such class and consistency. Liverpool would have missed Torres significantly less during his prolonged absences last season, because as a deep lying playmaker Gerrard makes chances for fun, chances even a mediocre forward like Ngog could get onto, while playing as a loose forward he has to work at it. Rafa was a liability with his repeated transfer blunders and befuddling tactical decisions.
All through last season, Liverpool would play Lucas and Mascherano in the central midfield. About as uncreative a pairing as you could dread seeing, with Maxi deployed on his unfavoured side (despite being left footed, he's better on the right), Benayoun and Babel warming the bench, Kuyt running his guts out to no avail in arrow straight lines up and down the right flank, while Gerrard ran in ever decreasing circles "in the hole" because clever interplay isn't his natural game - whatever he might think about it - desperate for a forward who wasn't Torres to make a Torres-style run and open the defence up for Gerrard to find him easily. Gerrard has many fine qualities. A quick and agile mind isn't one of them. To get the best out of him, he needs a second or two to size up the situation if the correct pass isn't immediately obvious for the whole stadium to see. Once he sees the pass, he can pick it out as well as any player and significantly better than most, but his slow thought processes mean that he sees the right ball later than a natural loose forward. From deep he can still play that ball because of his prodigious passing ability, as a loose forward the opportunity vanishes and he gets closed down. Thanks to Rafa's monumental ego and refusal to see the blatantly obvious, he used Liverpool's most important player all wrong, for prolonged periods of time, to the detriment of the team as a whole and for no other reason than to try and prove (unsuccessfully, as it happens) that he was right. That's why I loved him as a United fan.